51 | Joe Dolce, Author and Podcaster, Brave New Weed

“Cannabis is a wellness product because it can help you reduce anxiety and stress and it can help you also just shut off that self-defeating part of our brains that we all have, right? That non-regenerative, interfering, negative, oppressive voice of whatever father, mother, culture, society that says ‘you can’t do this.’ And I think a lot of people use cannabis to shut up, shut that voice down.” 

— Joe Dolce

Journalist and author Joe Dolce made cannabis his beat, and has covered it like no one else. His 2016 book Brave New Weed and ongoing podcast of the same name have established Joe as a unique voice, advocating for a smarter approach to cannabis, both for businesses and individuals. Listen and learn about how:

  • Meditation can help you relieve anxiety, and some useful apps for meditating
  • Cannabis can help you sleep better, be more creative and find better overall wellness.
  • Other plant-based supplements can be combined with cannabis to achieve relief in more safe and effective ways than pharmaceuticals
  • Joe’s educational projects can help you get smarter about weed. Check out Medical Cannabis Mentor and soon, Relief Without the High.


Kannaboom (00:00): Hey, I'm trying out my new audio logo here. It is welcome to Kanna... Boom. The podcast. Think that's going to work? We'll see. Hey, this week, I'm excited to have Joe Dolce on the program. I was a guest on Joe's podcast recently, and was eager to get him over here. He wrote a book several years back called Brave New Weed, and that's also the name of his podcast. It's great stuff. Joe is very educated on this and has a lot of expertise. In fact, right now he's developing two initiatives, one called Medical Cannabis Mentors, and another called Relief Without the High, and both are about educating consumers more about this plant. And we talk a lot about a survey that indicates that there's a lot of work to be done in that regard. And if you're a listener of this podcast, you know that that's our focus, the podcast, my website, and my newsletter Five Boom Friday, which you can sign up for at Kannaboom.com. Week after week, we're bringing you news and information about how hemp and cannabis can help you live a better life. So, happy to have Joe on. I think you'll enjoy this episode. Thanks again to Danny in Milwaukee for making us sound good.

Kannaboom (01:08): Cannabis is booming and Kannaboom is on it. Welcome to the Kannaboom podcast where we interview experts on the changing story of humans, health and hemp from San Diego. Here's your host, Tom Stacey.

Kannaboom (01:20): It's Tom we're back in the Kannaboom studio. Our guest today is Joe Dolce. How are you doing Joe?

Joe Dolce (01:25): Hello, Tom, you're happy with your new name? Kannaboom.

Kannaboom (01:27): I am. We dropped the ERs. Not that I'm running away from being a boomer, but I'm for having a wide open tent. So cannabis is booming and we are Kannaboom, boom. Thank you for being on the show, we did sort of a swap cast or a pod swap or whatever you want to call it where I was happy to be your guest on Brave New Weed, your show, and the name of your book also. And so glad to welcome you to Kannaboom.

Joe Dolce (01:50): I'm very happy to be here.

Kannaboom (01:52): So we had a great interview and we ended up talking about meditation, which is very topical these days, where a lot of us want to kind of hit the pause button and just find our place, our happy place and just chill out a little. Are you still meditating and how has your practice if you are?

Joe Dolce (02:09): I do meditate. Every day my practice is actually great, it's been great this year because I've been, I sort of dedicated myself to it more. This year. I've been meditating for about 30 years and that's very on and off. This year I decided early in the year in January just to really dive in, to try to understand consciousness a little more actually in the way it all works. And I downloaded the Sam Harris app called Waking Up. I thought maybe it's time to have a coach. And it's a great app. I recommend it, it costs $99 a year. I think you'd get a month free. And I have found it to be a great support. Sam talks a lot for me. He talks too much, but part of meditation is sort of using and filtering distraction and understanding that it's part of consciousness. So I'm trying to use his over-talking this as a strength, not as a, not as something that irritates me.

Kannaboom (03:15): Yeah. I have looked at his app and I liked it, there's a lot of resources there. You can kind of pull out podcasts and stuff. That's cool. I've been trying Calm, which is along those same lines. I mean, it's guided, but in the end you always kind of come back to your breath and I've been doing that too. Just when I get up in the morning, I try to sit for five minutes before I pick up the phone and look at the ongoing shit show. Just sit up straight for five minutes and try not to think and just breathe.

Joe Dolce (03:43): I find that a better way than reading the headlines first. It's just a, it's a better way to wake up and enter the day. I think you're, I think you're smart of doing it that way. I'll just say one thing, one thing I really like about Sam's app is, is as you said, the resources, but he'll have things like they'll have this great poet, David Whyte read some of his work and David's a great reader. So it's not only,uthe world of meditation. He'll have people on psychedelics. He'll have people talking about growth in, in all of these various areas,which is all very exciting and interesting to me. So I find, I sort of find that a good repository of, of consciousness seekers.

Kannaboom (04:25): Well, and that's a good point too. I mean, as we kind of stumble around, I think collectively we're hitting the pause button. I don't know if we're being meditative about it, but once again, things are screeching to a halt and it is a time to reflect if we, if we can do that. I don't know if we're capable of doing that as a society, but when you talk about David Whyte or other artists, there are things in the humanities that bring us back to humanity. And we have a lot of scientists and engineers, you know, Google and Facebook and Amazon are great tools, but they're run by technologists. Really not people who are steeped in the humanities and maybe it's ...

Joe Dolce (05:05): Unfortunately for Mark Zuckerberg, he is not. And we are all suffering as a result of it. These are people many, not all, but Mark Zuckerberg, prime example, who has no sense of responsibility for what he has created. So we are really missing an ethical foundation there and that is fucking dangerous. And I think we see the results of that right now. Bring on the poets, man,

Kannaboom (05:33): We're modern and we'd like to think we've evolved past things, but history truly does repeat itself. Plagues have reoccurred throughout history in Athens, in Europe, the Black Death in the 1300s and smallpox in the Americas, the Spanish flu a hundred years ago, this is a part of the human condition, right?

Joe Dolce (05:53): I think it's a part of the human condition, but I think it's, there's a great book called that was written, I think in 15 it came out. I think this is a different level of this because we're talking about the effect of environmental degradation, enabling diseases to spill over from one species to another and in a global world, which is unlike any other time when people travel so easily. So, so fastly, the consequences are much more profound. I think so. I highly recommend reading Spillover, it's written by a great science writer. It's, it's written as a mystery. Mostly it's completely compelling. You can't stop reading it, but to really explain how this is different because of what we, as humans are doing to the planet. I do feel that this is mother nature in her revenge and also saying, stop, stop what you're doing now, because it's going to get a lot worse. This to me is like the opening salvo. Yeah. I mean, imagine this going on and on and on and, and being, you know, having a new form. I mean, if you look at SARS and MERS and Corona, these are all the same virus. This is not new. It is just it mutates. And adapts in very clever ways. And right now it is winning.

Kannaboom (07:19): Right? Yeah. Well, as we record this we're not even through the first wave and we're getting a very serious uptick that is getting everyone's attention. We're about to have a big holiday weekend where millions of people are going to be gathering. Hopefully everyone plays it safe and keeps their distance and where's that...

Joe Dolce (07:36): Oh, they won't. Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, you know, there's always 20% that will not play ball. And with this current administration, it's more than 20%. I'm sorry, but it's true. And I feel that all of those people who refuse to play ball, so somehow be forced to sign a waiver that says, I will not go to a doctor or a hospital if I get sick, because I don't know what's going to make these people get it through their brain. That we're all in this together. I'm sorry. I feel very strident about this. I'm sorry. There's a whole bunch of Trump Republicans listening to this. Get smart folks.

Kannaboom (08:14): Well, I have to agree with you and you know, we'll get Spillover in the show notes and I'm going to get that on my Kindle right away. I have a lot of books to read, but that one sounds like it needs to go to the top of the list.

Joe Dolce (08:24): Really good. I'd love your feedback on it.

Kannaboom (08:26): Well, we talk historically about pandemics. Some of them were pivot points where feudalism became a thing of the past, or there were other changes, maybe wars ended because people stopped fighting. But this is an opportunity if we look at it properly to pivot away from some of the environmental practices, as we've done to economic and social justice in ways that we haven't looked at those before, are you hopeful along those lines?

Joe Dolce (08:53): Yes. If we have the leadership to get there. Without leaders, it's, we're never going to get there. Individuals can't make this change on their own. This is, these are massive changes. I am dubious that the current state of global politics is so bad and so authoritarian and so dumb. And so nationalistic that we're not going to be able to pull together as a planet to make these changes. You know, I hate to look, I'm, I'm really sounding like a bummer here, and I don't want to be a bummer. It doesn't feel great. Right? I want to live in a beautiful world. And right now it isn't beautiful, you know, and I, I can't, I can't pretend that it is taught. I can't, you know, I'm not one of these people. That's like thinking positive thoughts because frankly thinking positive thoughts, isn't going to do a damn thing. We need positive action. We need big positive action. I'm happy that people are in the streets that I think is super-positive because that's where change begins. But God, I hope it continues. And I hope it persists. And I hope minds open and change.

Kannaboom (10:12): That's the thing that produces so much anxiety is nobody knows what's going to happen. I mean, we can all project and predict, but there's a lot of uncertainty with this election a few months away. There's a lot of things that could happen there. Trump could decide tomorrow, he can't win, he's going to drop out, they'll put somebody else up or he could decide he's not leaving. Or there's a lot of things that could happen. We get back to meditation and just waking up each day and trying not to zoom in on the headlines and freak out all day.

Joe Dolce (10:42): Well, that's what I find meditation good at. Is it, it does give you some sense of distance and enables you to step back a bit. That doesn't mean you're not going to get up out of bed and still read the headlines and still think, wow, we're in trouble. And we've got to do something here. We've got to act, we've got to either give money or get out in the streets, do what we all can. You know, I don't think meditation is the answer for a global pandemic. I think it's good for each individual examining how they, how they look at life and how they, how they experience their lives. And giving them distance from the anxiety that is inevitable. Yeah. Boy, I really sound like a bummer. Can't you guide me, can't you guide me to a more cheerful topic? Tom, please.

Kannaboom (11:38): I was going to somehow artfully segue over to hemp. Cause that's another thing that we seem to have forgotten about. That was a hundred years ago 150 years ago, our great, great grandparents were passing around tinctures, you know, treating migraines and, and there was no stigma around it and we forgot about that. And I do have something that I just noticed. My friend Curt Robbins sent me a survey from Oasis intelligence. I think they're out of Phoenix or somewhere, but they did a study in September and December of 2019. And they talked to 20,000 current and prospective cannabis consumers in every U.S. State. And some of the takeaways were a little stunning to me. Like this one: approximately 75% of people surveyed who are cannabis consumers or prospective consumers are unfamiliar with the terms, entourage effect, endocannabinoid system, and terpenes.

Joe Dolce (12:39): They haven't read my book. I haven't read Brave New Weed. Why have they not read it, Tom? What can we do?

Kannaboom (12:45): We talked about this when you interviewed me, you know, we have job security because there's a lot of ignorance out there still around this plant that can help in so many ways can help people get over anxiety and insomnia and all of that. But there's still a lot of ignorance around the fundamentals.

Joe Dolce (13:01): I know. I, I mean, yes, it's true. Yeah, I mean most doctors, I think 80% of all doctors or 85% with the last statistics, I don't know what the endocannabinoid system is. We certainly don't know where the entourage effect is. And I'll bet you, most of them don't even know what a terpene is. Even though they're out there smelling beautiful smells all day in the forest. You know, look, what can we do? We put it out there. We hope people on your podcast mind, go and talk to one other person about what they know and what they've learned and that's how it begins. But there's a lot of work to do. What other statistics are in that study.

Kannaboom (13:43): The number one place people like to learn from is dispensaries, followed by YouTube.

Joe Dolce (13:49): Well, that's depressing, isn't it? I mean, I mean, I've had great experiences in dispensaries, but I've also had silly experiences where you know, the budtender. Sure. And no offense, please go and not be trained. Just not know the answers to questions. Okay. You know, you go in and you ask for a product, especially if you have a medical issue. It's like, 'Hey man, this is fire.' Well, 'this is fire' is not really the answer that patients or people with real medical needs necessarily want. So there is no system of training in a dispensary. Again, I've had amazing experiences in certain dispensaries mostly in California. I have to say where it's been great. Right.

Kannaboom (14:36): I look forward to having an endocannabinologist who can ask you questions and can get a reading on how you interact with the plant and what you're looking for. But you're right. I mean, what I get is the preference of the budtender, who is usually just going to go for, what has the most THC, I mean,

Joe Dolce (14:56): And you know, he is usually maybe 21, 22 years old again. No, no offense about that. But what's your training, you know, I mean the one thing I've done on this front is I started a school called Medical Cannabis Mentor.com and we supply training to dispensaries bud tenders and to healthcare practitioners, anybody who wants it really I, you know, so I'm trying to put it out there, but most of these dispensaries owned by multi-state operational companies have no minimal training requirement. I don't get that. I mean, they consider it an undue expense. I consider it necessary job training and sales training. Like how do you get and retain customers? You better know something, right. Even if you're just selling to the recreational market, you better know something.

Kannaboom (15:49): Right. Have you been to Harborside?

Joe Dolce (15:52): Yes, I have.

Kannaboom (15:53): I've not been there, but I hear that it's kind of the prototypical exemplary dispensary.

Joe Dolce (15:59): I had a wonderful experience there a couple of years ago. I don't know where it's at now. I think it's great. It's in the Bay area. It's actually located in Oakland. It was the very first dispensary in California. It's enormous. I had really educated people working there really answering my questions thoroughly. I've also had good experiences at Spark in San Francisco and Harvest and Apothacarium have all been, you know, I'm very impressed. I have to say very, very impressive, but that's for sure.

Kannaboom (16:40): Well, you're fortunate to be up there. Some places don't have that level of choice. I've been to three or four in San Diego and their stores. I mean, they're the ones I've been to aren't really huge. Golden State Greens in Point Loma has been there for quite a while. I've used some delivery services, but you know, I think we need to get to a point where people can walk in and feel comfortable and be confident that they're going to get some expert advice.

Joe Dolce (17:06): Well, I think, look, like many things, I hope that once the national prohibition is relieved that there will be less pressure on the industry. Right? Look, don't forget, this is an industry that still has to do everything in cash, gets no tax benefits, you know, is, was even not, I mean, not allowed to get Cares grants, right? I mean, not, they were exempt from it. So the burdens the government puts on the industry make it very difficult for the industry to get up to speed. I'm sure the level of many people who were running things wouldn't like to get you. I can't imagine any owner of a dispensary would not want to educate his or her staff. You know, there's a lot, there's a lot of encumbrances right now.

Kannaboom (17:59): Yeah. I've also heard speculation that cannabis and hemp might be really, even hotter as we exit the pandemic. As we come out of this there's jobs from agriculture to packaging, to marketing and sales and legal and compliance. And the fact that it was recognized as essential. You know, some of the stigma has, I wouldn't say totally disappeared, but maybe it's rolled back enough that this industry will get the respect that the alcohol industry gets. And, and that kind of lobbying support and the things it takes to, to really become a mature industry.

Joe Dolce (18:36): I hope so. I mean, it seems to me that it's time that's for sure. And yeah, I mean, some states definitely deemed an essential business, which is great, but it's still, so I mean, it's hard to be in this business right now and the government could make it much easier and by the way, what's the next great American boom industry. You see it on the horizon. I know it's not coal. You know, it's not heavy duty manufacturing. Like certain Trump Republicans seem to think that's not it, man. Cannabis is, has got it all, really fast and it can really, you can kill it. It can absolutely kill it. So I just kind of understand why people aren't taking their blinders open saying, Hey, let's invest in this because we can, we can, we can make jobs in every state of the union. We can export this stuff.

Kannaboom (19:34): Yeah. It's agriculture, it's textiles, it's building materials...

Joe Dolce (19:39): Technology you know all, all sorts of amazing things that America should be at the forefront of not lagging behind. But it seems to me that we're in the laggardly state right now, but this should be a killer industry, man. So supportive of it and got it. They gotta make it better. They gotta make it easier for, can you imagine if they did this to the technology industry or the manufacturing industry in the, in the thirties and the forties? Yeah. You can only pay your taxes in cash. You don't get any product benefits. Yeah.

Kannaboom (20:14): Right. They've got to take the handcuffs off and let the industry run.

Joe Dolce (20:19): Let it fly. Yeah. I mean regulated smartly, but, but let it fly.

Kannaboom (20:23): Yeah. Well like in California, the compromises that had to be made on the way to legalization ended up giving large corporations a much bigger advantage. So some of the small legacy enterprises find themselves kind of behind the eight ball having to jump through all these regulatory hoops and then doing things the right way, but losing a lot of market share to people who didn't play by the rules. I think maybe 30% of Californians are, are going through the legal market. Many people are still buying underground.

Joe Dolce (20:56): What they did in California in terms of taxing and having a million different regulatory structures. I mean, it's not that compelling of a podcast to talk about it, but it was torture and California did not do a brilliant job of regulating an industry that has its own really its own industry here. Right. It is the biggest cash crop in the state. They should have done a much more, a much better job, much more organized job, but you know, that's behind us. I think Governor Newsome is trying to make it regulatorily responsible. Is that the right word? He's trying to sort of pull all these things together and, and, and lessen the bureaucratic nightmare.

Kannaboom (21:44): Like you said, it gets back to leadership. If you could get a leader who just can espouse the vision of, look between the underground market and the taxed market, there's enough room to lower the taxes, bring up legal consumption and stimulate tax revenues, which we're all going to need, and grow this industry. And hopefully other states learn from what has happened here. And it's, you know, you test, you learn, you come back, you do it again. Oh, here's another stat for you from this study: 48% consume cannabis entirely or mostly for medical or wellness reasons while 19% don't draw any distinction between medical wellness and recreational use.

Joe Dolce (22:27): Well, I don't believe that statistic. I think, I think people who are filling out surveys they're sort of hip to surveys and they're hip to, you know, things like this. So they may say it's medical. I don't know if, I mean, I happen to believe that almost all use is on some level medical, frankly. I mean anxiety or even social anxiety. These are, could be concerns, could be considered quote unquote medical conditions. But the great thing about cannabis is it doesn't matter. You use it when you need it and you know how to use it almost intuitively you know, when to stop, right. That's what's so great. I mean, Lester Grinspoon who died last week told me he was the first person I ever interviewed when I was starting that book Brave New Weed. And he said to me, look, this is the people's medicine. It's been safety tested for over 5,000 years in every culture around the world. So we know that it's not going to kill anybody and people intuitively know how to use it. And then we do by the way, and we do. And whether it's to feel happy or less anxious or hungry, whatever it is you need, you can adapt it. And now we have, you know, so many forms of it. Man, I just got this nice product called MicroDose from these manufacturers in Oregon. And it's a four to one tincture and it is the best sleeping formula I have come across. It was amazing. It is amazing. I mean, I, I don't know how I'm going to live without it, when it runs out. I'm going to have to get more, so I'm going to have to do it, but you know, this is, this is, these are great advances that people are making.

Joe Dolce (24:15): And, and while we have so much choice, once people know how to use the stuff, you know, you can really be effective. So I'm not sure that I'm hoping that, I mean, you know, I'm amazed that half the population would identify themselves as medical users, but whatever all use is medical.

Kannaboom (24:34): I think Tommy Chong said that. And I think I agree. Anxiety, 51% depression, 44% and insomnia, 31% or the top medical slash wellness concerns people are looking to cannabis for help with.

Joe Dolce (24:47): Not pain?

Kannaboom (24:48): Not in this press release, no.

Joe Dolce (24:50): Well, I guess they left off pain. Pain is every, every stat I've ever read some pain as the number one is the number one reason, chronic pain in particular, yeah.

Kannaboom (24:58): Do you use a dry herb vaporizer at all?

Joe Dolce (25:01): I do. As a matter of fact, I use the Firefly.

Joe Dolce (25:04): Do you like it?

Joe Dolce (25:05): I like the Firefly 2 Plus, as a matter of fact, I like the Firefly2 Plus very much. There was another one, I believe it was the DaVinci that I also liked. I don't own it, so I haven't used it regularly. Oh, you know what else I like is the Crafty, it's a bit heavy. It's sort of cumbersome, but you know, it's made by Storz and Bickel. They're a German company. They invented the Volcano vaporizer. So their manufacturing is great. And I think it's, it's, I, these are all convection vaporizers, Tom, do you, do you know the difference between convection and conduction?

Kannaboom (25:38): I should know, but I'm not certain.

Joe Dolce (25:40): I really recommend convection. It's like a convection of it. It circulates air around the plant matter. So it melts the oils. Conduction is more like a frying pan. There's a hot plate that hits the plant material and it can burn that material. I like the convection because it's just air melting those oils. So it's even more vapor. And you never get that taste of burnt plant. You could get in something like a, like an old school Pax or something like that. They all work. They all work. I, you know, I'm just being snobby about it. I think that if you have your choice and they've now the prices are really dropping. Like I think that Firefly2 Plus is about 150 bucks. That's okay. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a well-designed long-lasting machine that you can also control the temperature and all sorts of gadgets, settings, on your app, on an app on your phone.

Kannaboom (26:46): And I like that you're, you're not incinerating the whole flower. And as you say, you're kind of melting those trichomes and it's truly vapor. It's not an aerosol that is made from carrier liquids that could gum up your lungs. It's just pure steam.

Joe Dolce (27:01): And the nice thing about vapor is it's a couple of hundred degrees, I believe a couple of hundred degrees below the point of combustion. So it's much cooler on the lungs. And for those of us of a certain age, you know, I mean, I love smoking, Tom, but it's not making me better as I grow older. Right. I mean, I love smoking. I love smoking everything. But vaporizing is such a sensible and clean way of going and also more efficient. You know, you burn a lot of stuff. Isn't going up in the air and smoke.

Kannaboom (27:36): Right, right. It's all, it's all being used. So if you're smoking, you know, high quality bud, that's expensive. You don't want to go on up in the air so much. You want it all going into your body.

Kannaboom (27:47): So I've got the DaVinci, which I like. And I am also playing with the Hydrology9 from Cloudious9.

Joe Dolce (27:54): How is it?

Kannaboom (27:55): It's a space age thing. I mean, it looks like a bong. Like it, it has a water chamber, which really, you get a very cooling effect on the vapor and it's got these LED lights. So it looks like a lava lamp. It's kind of fun and amazing. The only thing is there's you talking about smoking and everybody knows how to pack a bowl or roll a joint and then, you know, flick the Bic and you're on your way. There's always a little learning curve with the vaporizer. Do I hit this button three times or five times and you’ve got to make sure it's charged up or it's a buzzkill.

Joe Dolce (28:31): Literally that's true. Is the one you're talking about, say the name again, hydraulics?

Kannaboom (28:36): Hydrology9, that's the model is portable? Will it fit in your pocket?

Kannaboom (28:40): It's a little, it's probably six inches tall. So it's just at the edge of portability. I mean, you could put it in your, in your backpack. It would probably not fit in your pocket. And it's called the Hydrology9 from Cloudious9. They do have a pocket-sized, one called the Atomic9 which I like a lot too. Let me see what else we've got: The subjects people most want to learn about are available products, followed by CBD / THC ratios.

Joe Dolce (29:09): Well, yes, of course. We all want to know about products. I think the ratios are fascinating and really helpful. So like I said, I've been trying this, I've been using this four to one tincture, which is for CBD THC, which works really well for me to sleep. And you know, you can get ratios 20 to one, 12 to one, eight to one, four to one, one to one, and you can play with them and you can, and those can be THC dominant or CBD dominant. So we know that for example, THC is better for nausea. So if you're going to be playing with something for nausea, you would go for a THC dominant ratio. If you're thinking about sleep, I would say a one to one or a four to one CBD to THC. You need some THC to make you sleepy, right? Cause if you think about it, if you're just smoking or using regular cannabis, you're going to, you know, you inhale, you get high for, I don't know, an hour, an hour and a half, two hours. And as those effects start to wear off, you start to get a little tired. And that's when you normally have another hitch, right? You'll you'll, you'll go up again. But if you want to use it for sleep, you actually want those tired effects to come on and help get you, lull you to bed. Lull you went to sleep. And then what I like to do, if we're talking about sleep is what if I'm having a hard time. I never have a hard time getting to sleep. I have a hard time staying, right? So I'll use something to get me to sleep, but then I'll take an edible lately. I've been using the Camino five to one CBD to THC. Is that right? Maybe I can't remember what it is, but it's delicious. It's got this new flavor, like blueberry or something. Camino is made by Kiva. So I'll take one of those edibles and that'll pretty much get me through the night and those kinds of tips and tricks. I learned a lot while writing Brave New Weed, I'd have really done me well over the years. Then I, and I try to tell everybody I know, you know, let's take what we know and put it into practice. And just to explain to anybody who doesn't know. So an edible takes about an hour and a half or two hours to get into the system, right. To get into the bloodstream, has to go through the digestive and then deliver. So that's a great reason to use it for a long-term effect it'll last longer. And because it takes the time to get into the system, you're sleeping, no big deal. You're already asleep, right. And that's why it can carry you through the night.

Kannaboom (32:02): I've had good luck with I'll cut a 10 milligram, a gummy in half. And I like indica, Kanha makes some great indicas and I'm good for my seven or eight hours quite reliably. And if you have any anxiety, it's a, it's a great way to just fall asleep and stay asleep.

Joe Dolce (32:19): So what I like to say to people though, is you have to play with it. You have to find the ratio and the product that works for you. The good news is you don't have to be afraid of it. It's never going to kill you. It's never going to harm you, but it does take some time and some experimentation. Right?

Kannaboom (32:35): Right. That's one of the things that I think we need to talk about is, there is a test and learn aspect to this. And there's also the fact that we each have different genetics. You know, what affects you in one way might affect me differently. And then the plant itself, if you're talking about smoking or vaporizing it within the same bud, if it's closer to the stem, it's going to have different amounts of THC. So there's a lot of variability to this. You know, I was talking to a friend who said he was trying edibles from the same company. There's a pink lemonade one and an orange one, and they're both 10 milligram indicas, but one has a different effect on him. And I don't know if the manufacturer is doing something or if he's just exquisitely sensitive to that cultivar. But I think for all of us, we have to realize, as you say, you need to investigate it, but you can be confident you're safe. It's not going to hurt you. It's just, there's some, there's a bit of a learning curve to any cannabis that you're going to explore

Joe Dolce (33:37): For two years now, I've been trying to work on a self-education program that is clunkily titled Relief Without the High. It's how to use cannabinoids. You know, if you don't, if getting high, isn't your main point, but maybe you want to use it for stress or anxiety or sleep or pain. Right. And I've been trying to work on this self-guided program. And if anybody's listening to this who is a great app developer who has great skills with technology and creating coaches, coaching apps, if you will please call me up, send me at joej@oedolce.com because I've got the framework. I know I have the information, I have the knowledge and I really want to make it easy for people to experiment and guide themselves through the process of learning the different delivery systems, learning length of times, things to kick in and how you can tweak it and, and, and really make it work. Or you could design your own personalized medical cannabis protocol. How does that sound? Is that highfalutin enough?

Kannaboom (34:51): I like that vision. And there's some leadership behind that vision. You're, you're going the right way. And Relief Without the High is very concise and cogent. I, you know, I don't think that's clunky.

Joe Dolce (35:02): Well, if you know anybody or any of your listeners do, please, please, please reach out to me. I'm very serious. I really think this is great information that can be, you know, delivered for very little money and that people can really get control over. And as you said in the beginning, if people don't know the terms, endocannabinoid system, entourage effect, I am positive, positive, positive. They don't know all the fun nuances of playing with cannabinoids, you know, and I find it fascinating. So I just want to know more and more and more. I want to, I want to learn everything I can about it. And I, and I continue to learn about it. It's always interesting.

Kannaboom (35:44): Well, and I think that's a bit of the genius behind Relief Without the High is it's almost a contrarian statement. I mean, the, the old stereotype is you smoke weed and you're locked to the couch and you're going to watch Netflix for hours. Well, no, some people go out and run. They run five or 10 miles or they sit down and write. There's a lot of things you can do. You don't have to get super-stoned and it can serve you in many ways, but you have to have the curiosity to begin to look into it.

Joe Dolce (36:11): Writing makes you anxious. It makes people anxious. Let's face it. It just does. I think that's one of the reasons people use cannabinoids or cannabis when they do something like writing, because you know, everybody talks about it, opening up a creative flow. I think it's true. But I think part of opening up a creative flow is shutting off that valve in your brain that says, I can't do this. I'm not good enough. This sucks. Right. You have to shut that down. Anybody who writes anything or paints anything or sculpts, anything knows that you don't let it come out. And if you're so anxious that you can't, then you're not going to have that full flow. So that's why that's one of the reasons I think cannabis has always been considered something that encourages creativity. You know what I mean?

Kannaboom (37:02): Right. Artists, this is a time where we need artists and the perspective of the humanities and that view of the world. And anything that can help people get that mindset is, is an asset right now.

Joe Dolce (37:14): Yeah. And that's why I think cannabis is a, is a wellness product because it can help you reduce anxiety and stress and it can help. You also just shut off that self-defeating part of our brains that we all have, right? That non-regenerative, interfering, negative, oppressive voice of whatever father, mother culture, society that says you can't do this. And I think a lot of people use cannabis to shut up, shut that voice down.

Kannaboom (37:50): So, Joe, earlier you mentioned the course, you have Medical Cannabis Mentor. People can go there and learn some of the basics. Do you see, is there a linkage between that and your, your Relief Without the High project?

Joe Dolce (38:04): Well, Medical Cannabis Mentor is sort of business-to-business. The school of learning right now, Relief Without the High will live in Medical Cannabis Mentor, but it'll be very inexpensive that anybody can just sort of go in and download and take really. My obstacle is how to create it as a self learning coach. That's what I, I don't have the skill of being a coder and I think it would really help. So that's what I'm, I'm aiming quite high, but I'm actually really willing to iterate it and try it in very basic forms. So I can learn eventually how to turn it into an app. No, you know, a lot of apps begin as very simple web-based tools, right? So I've tried, I've given it to people in text, it's really unwieldy. And I have to say, it's like, it's way too long and way too clunky. And with my friends, I'm able to, you know, be a personal coach, but that isn't really that practical either, because really I want the whole world to have this information, right. I don't want to be the one walking you through all this stuff over time. So that's why I really want to build it into something that everybody can have access to download, learn, play with, and actually build a community around it. So if somebody who says, 'Oh, that didn't work for me, but I did this,' for example. I'll tell you one more thing about sleep. I learned, hold on, pull this out. Okay. So I came across this natural supplement called ornithine. And two of these capsules at 500 milligrams each. So a gram of this stuff, plus a little bit of cannabinoids is a beautiful night's sleep. I mean, so beautiful. Sometimes I don't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee and for a man, my age is sort of a miracle, right? So I love that idea of mixing cannabinoids and natural supplements, plant-based supplements that potentiate each other and synthesize each other so that you can even get, you know, more, better results, man, you know, you get more sleep, you get better sleep. And let's face it. Sleep is core to wellbeing, right? When you don't sleep, life sucks. And for some reason after 40 or 45 or 50, most of us don't sleep that well anymore. Yeah.

Kannaboom (40:51): It's foundational on top of that. I think diet and exercise, and I think cannabis is a, can be right in there with all three of those. You know, maybe it's an herb that you supplement your diet with like a vitamin. Your endocannabinoid system is what keeps you in balance. And maybe you need your daily dose.

Joe Dolce (41:11): I'm starting to believe that. And again, you don't have to get high. I mean, for example, I can't work when I'm high, it's just not working for me these days. God knows. I certainly did it a lot. When I was in college, I managed to get through very effectively and very efficiently using cannabis almost every day for very different reasons. But you know, at this point in my life, I can't, I don't want to, so we have to expand the vocabulary of how to use the plant and, and the different ways that people use the plant, because there's so many people who use it so differently, right? I mean, some people just use CBD and they find it very effective. Some people are using high-potency, THC all day long. And God knows, I know so many of them engineers and people who work in the government, people who do seriously big jobs, biotechnology who are using cannabis all day long, I don't, you know, it makes no sense to me how you can be that focused and do it, but they do coders, who seem to say that it enhances their focus and enables them to bore in and drill into drill into projects. I mean, I get it, but it doesn't work for me that way, but more power to them. And I say, you know, everybody should find the way it works for them, the best, one of the thoughts impeding their life or getting in the way of, you know, your functioning or your social life or your responsibilities,

Kannaboom (42:45): A guest we both had, Rob Mejia has a great tool for keeping track of it. And Rob's journal is a great way to say, okay, OG Kush works well in this instance. And maybe this edible did the job and I got a great night's sleep. This vape helped me get energized and do the job. But if you don't take note of that, it's very easy to lose track.

Joe Dolce (43:08): That's for sure. You've got to track it. And I think having an organized document is a really great thing. I mean, you know, again, when I build the Relief Without the High app, this magical app that doesn't exist, it'll have a tracking system in it so that you always have a record of what you're doing. And I think that's crucial.

Kannaboom (43:29): Do you need an instructional designer to sort of design the path through the app?

Joe Dolce (43:36): That might be good. Yeah. I keep calling it an app. I'm telling you it doesn't, it could just be a web-based document. Yes. I think that would be, would be helpful to me. Because there's so many different paths you can take, right? There's if this, then that, if this, then that, if this, then that, right, like, for example, if you don't like to inhale this, right. If you are averse to any THC go in this direction, that's sort of what I'm grappling with. Like there's so many variables. I would like to enable these different paths to become clear and simple.

Kannaboom (44:16): I've spent some time in educational technology and we were trying to sort of gamify K through 12 instruction to make it 'as fun as anything a kid could do' was the tagline. I don't know that we achieved that. But you know, also when you talk about an app, now, most people are thinking about what's on their phone, but maybe there's a way to gamify cannabis. And if this, then that and just lead people down the path in sort of a graphical way. So they don't have to, no one likes to read anymore. Right?

Joe Dolce (44:44): Yeah. It's too cumbersome on a phone. I mean, I get it. I think it's, if it's mobile, it's perfect because people are using and go using this as, as they go. And obviously we do everything on our phones these days. So yeah. Make it fun. Yeah. If, if you know somebody, if you want to work on it with me, let's do it, man, because the world wants it. You know, they don't even know. They, I mean, I don't think people know they want it because the knowledge, even though it's, there is not coherent and the promise is not explicit, right? No one is saying, 'you can use cannabis and get the same results as these pharmacy sleeping pills and you can use it.' You know, we're such an overmedicated society take this pill for this and this, for this and this, for this. I mean the statistics, why don't you start looking at it from that? It is insane. The number of pills people take every day and one pill to take away the symptoms that another pill causes. And man, I mean, we just did a thing on Medical Cannabis Mentor. I just put a blog up on women's health and the statistics are amazing. The number of medications women use today has gone up something like seven fold in the last 20 years, seven times. It's not that women are more sick. It's just that they're being so over medicated. And I think there's a real movement against this in the population. And certainly people who were into plant medicines and botanicals and other sorts of supplements and natural healing are clued into this.

Kannaboom (46:23): Recently I had Abbie Rosner on, she's a writer. She writes for Forbes, but she, you know, she was in Israel for 25 years and you know, they didn't really have a war on drugs. They had other wars, they were fighting. So they didn't have the ridiculous concept of conducting a war on drugs. But she said, she came back to the United States and she was appalled at what had become of the pharmaceutical industry, that these corporations were getting people on drugs. And then on other drugs that made them sicker. It's just mind boggling that we ended up in this place. We get back to this safe and efficacious, organic substance that can treat many of these things. And we just have to do a better job of getting the word out. And you're doing that with Medical Cannabis Mentor and with Relief Without the High. So I think you're going in the right direction. And thank you for that.

Joe Dolce (47:15): Thank you for helping. I mean, let's, let's, you know, let's get the word out, especially look, if, if you're, if you were talking to boomers, if you still are talking to boomers, this is our generation and we need to help people here, right? People don't want to be in pain and they don't have to be. And I do think there's a lot of people who want to know more about using botanical substances, but it's hard. They're unregulated; the instructions are they there's no information about what potentiates this and that. As a matter of fact, on the Brave New Weed podcast on my podcast, I interviewed a plant scientist several episodes ago named Kevin Spellman. And I highly recommend you listen to it or anybody who's interested in these topics, listen to it. Cause he's really talking about, hey, he loves cannabis and understands it, but he also understands what, what enhances it and what you can combine with it and how to combine it and in what doses to combine it with various very interesting, very interesting episode. I want more people like that in my life. You know, I want people who can, who can say that this plant does this when you use it in this amount.

Kannaboom (48:36): Yeah. I mean, there, there's a lot of complexity to it, but it's not so complex that we can't present it in terms that are easy to understand and easy to encourage people.

Joe Dolce (48:48): It's, it's the problem. It's not easy. It's never going to be as easy as take these two or these 22 or these 222 pills. Right. And we have trained ourselves to think that that's the only way. And you know, some of the smartest people, I know, Tom, will not spend the time or don't have the interest in understanding what's going on in their body with illness or with healing or with medicines. They really want to export it all into the hands of their doctor, which puts a tremendous pressure on the doctor and all the healthcare system. And he sort of says, well, I don't have to listen to my body. I don't have to listen to what's going on here because the doctor and the pills are going to take care of it. And when you think about that, we have, we're really divorcing ourselves from, from nature, from what our bodies are, right. I mean, I'm not talking about cancer and super-serious and rare illnesses. I'm talking about just feeling well, how do we enable us to feel well, feel better,

Kannaboom (50:01): Right? And the paradigm of, of plant-based medicine, being a way towards that, being proactive and taking more responsibility for your own health and, you know, not ceding it all to the medical profession.

Joe Dolce (50:14): I can only say, I think it's the future. When we, when you look at digital health and telemedicine and this idea of personalized medicine, right. Really understanding that your genetics are different from my genetics and not, you know, you're taking that pill, isn't going to make you feel the way that it's going to make me feel. I think we're heading in this direction as a culture. I don't think our healthcare system is anywhere near it, that dumpster on fire that we call the healthcare system. But I think there is a group of, there's a group of the population that wants this and that is going to be very interested in this, as it, as it comes to fruition. And right now the healthcare system is behind it. It's not ahead of it.

Kannaboom (50:57): I think so. I think we're segued from just utter despair at the beginning of this to a hopeful place.

Joe Dolce (51:03): Well thank you for guiding me into hope, Tom, you know, cause I am hopeful. I'm not hopeful about the politics of the moment, but I really hope that, you know, these, these sort of things become the way we think about our bodies and I'm all really into spreading this knowledge and learning as much as I can about this. I think it's, you know, there's the old people think, you think botanicals, they think, 'Oh hippie.' But the difference now is that we have technology. This is botanical with technology so we can track and we can modify and we can measure. And we can test in ways that, you know, the lovely elixir makers of 50, 60 years ago couldn't and I, and I think this is the opportunity right now. I really do. I think taking these plant substances and adding some tech to them and knowing how to combine them in different ways is, is really an exciting future.

Kannaboom (52:04): Yeah, it's multidisciplinary. And like we talked about with the whole economy, it goes into every sector from, from agriculture to, to marketing to tech. And you know, now is really the time the resurgence from where we are, is going to require imagination and leadership and passion and energy and the kind of tools that you're talking about and that you are developing are gonna, are going to help us get there. So, Joe, is there anything we haven't covered that we should?

Joe Dolce (52:31): Tons of stuff. I mean, we could get very specific you know, we can talk really seriously about combining different plants, but why don't we hold it for another podcast? Because I think ending on a note of hope, Tom, I feel really great that you've driven me to this position.

Kannaboom (52:47): I like that, Joe, just so our listeners know you've got the Brave New Weed podcast. Where else can we find you online?

Joe Dolce (52:54): You can find me at the Brave New Weed Podcast. There's a direct link to me. There's Medical Cannabis, Mentor.com. You can go there. You've I've already given you my email address. If you happen to be someone who's an instructional designer who can help us bring Relief Without the High to the planet, I think you can find me.

Kannaboom (53:12): Okay. We'll, we'll get that in the show notes for anybody who can bring help to this. Cause we're all in it together and we're gonna, we're gonna push it forward. So thanks for making the time, Joe. Appreciate it a lot. And we'll do this again.

Joe Dolce (53:24): Thank you for guiding me to hope.

Kannaboom (53:26): You've been listening to the Kannaboom podcast with host Tom Stacey, if you like the show and want to know more, please check us Kannaboom.com and please leave us a review at Apple podcasts or wherever you listen, see you next week.